Written by: Greg Ellifritz
As of today, every state except Illinois has some type of provision to allow citizens obtain a permit to carry a concealed handgun while engaged in lawful activity. In some states, that permit is easy to get. In others (like California or Hawaii) it is almost impossible unless you are politically connected.
What many people don’t know is that the UNCONCEALED (or open) carry of firearms is not legally regulated in many states. Here in Ohio, it is completely legal for anyone over the age of 21 (without a history of mental illness, drug addiction, or felony conviction) to carry a firearm in public. No permit is needed as long as the gun is not concealed.
Did you know this was legal activity?
It’s rare, but occasionally you will see someone carrying openly. Most do it as a political statement. They are trying to raise awareness for better concealed carry laws and promote the idea that guns can and should be safely carried by anyone who wants to. I applaud the gun rights activism. I think people should recognize that guns are not necessarily bad and get used to “normal” people carrying them.
This article got me contemplating the issue:
Unarmed man attempts to rob EMU student of holstered gun
I’ve come to the conclusion that open carry just isn’t a very good idea.
First of all, if you live in a state where open carry is legal, I am not trying to limit your rights to carry a gun. Go for it if you want…just put some thought into it before you wear your gun into WalMart. I want to provide some information on a topic I know…the carrying of guns. Hopefully my arguments will make you think twice about carrying openly.
Open carry can lead to numerous problems. As a cop responding to calls about this activity and as a person who carries a concealed handgun everywhere, I have a unique insight. Here are some of the issues:
1) Open carry will cause hassles with other people and eventually the police.
Unless you live in a western state, open carry isn’t very common. When the uneducated populace sees someone carrying a gun (without a badge), they assume that a law is being broken. They panic and call the cops. What they tell the dispatcher when they call has no basis in truth. It usually ends up being something like: “There’s a man with a gun running around the grocery store scaring people!” If you were a cop, how would you respond to that call? I know I would respond with lights and siren and have my gun out on arrival. As soon as I saw the person described, I would put him on the ground at gunpoint and handcuff him until I could figure out what’s going on.
Would you like to have that happen to you? No, it isn’t your fault. I know you didn’t do anything wrong (and I’ll quickly let you out of the cuffs and send you on your way), but do you need that hassle?
If the caller would have been honest and said “There’s a person walking around the grocery store who has a gun on his hip. He isn’t threatening anyone and appears to be shopping.”, I wouldn’t even approach you. I’d educate the caller that no laws were being broken and leave.
But that’s just not how it happens in real life. Blame it on whomever you like, but reality dictates you’ll get a police response. Who wants to deal with that when you can simply cover your gun?
2) Criminals are not deterred by openly carried guns
For an obvious example of this, look at the article linked above. That guy just waited for the gun carrier to look the other direction and he attacked, trying to rip the gun out of the holster. Any serious violent criminal who has been in the game for awhile knows how to check the crowd before he commits the crime. He’s looking for witnesses, cops, security guards, and anyone who will likely intervene. If he finds one of those people, he deals with them FIRST, then he goes on to commit the crime.
The armed robber (who has his gun concealed) will just shoot you in the back of the head before moving on to take the cash. Or he might do worse…what if he takes your child hostage and orders you to give up your gun? Most people don’t think about that possibility.
A criminal looks at this scene differently. He thinks, “If I snatch the kid, Dad will give up the gun.” And most of the time, the criminal is right.
Keep your cards hidden. That gives you multiple response options. Once the armed criminals know you are packing, you’ll be the first one shot.
3) Getting your gun taken is a likely possibility!
Most people who carry guns tell me “I never let a criminal get within 10 feet of me. I’m constantly aware of my surroundings.” It’s bullshit. They are deluding themselves. It’s physically impossible for one human to simultaneously scan 360 degrees at the same time. You always have to turn your back to something! Especially in a crowded public area, you simply can’t process all of the information fast enough to decide who is a threat and who isn’t.
Every year about 10 percent of the cops who are killed in the line of duty are killed with their own firearms. Cops are trained to be alert, they often work with partners, and they have the best retention holsters available. Yet they still get their guns taken from them! You think you can do better because you took a one-day CCW course? Understand reality. You can’t see everything and you can’t win every fight. Your gun can be taken and used against you.
4) Most people who carry guns have crappy holsters and no weapon retention skills
I teach force-on-force fighting skills to cops and citizens. In those courses, I teach my students what to do if someone grabs their holstered gun. Even after multiple days of training, the students still have trouble retaining their firearm in a surprise attack. Most pistol packers don’t even have the benefit of this kind of training.
Think about this for a second. You are open carrying a gun on your right hip. I walk up to you and engage you in casual conversation…something like “Hey! Don’t our kids go to the same school?” As you are trying to figure out who I am, I move closer and I grab your right hand with my right hand and pin it to my chest. You struggle, but because I’m stronger, you can’t free yourself. As soon as I have the arm controlled, I grab your holstered pistol with my left hand. How are you going to stop that?
I’ve done that scenario on dozens of students. It almost always works. I end up with their gun and they have a puzzled look on their face.
It’s even easier to do when you are wearing a crappy holster. That “great deal” you found at the gun show will rip right off your pants if I yank on it. Trust me. I have some trophies from my force-on-force training sessions. In every class, I destroy a Fobus holster with one pull. You may think it’s used by the Israeli Military, but it isn’t. It’s trash. If you don’t believe me watch THIS VIDEO. It isn’t just the Fobus. I’ve done similar things with lots of other junky holsters. Smart gun owners don’t use junk holsters.
If your defensive holster looks like this, you are going to have a big surprise if you have to fight over your gun.
Just because you can carry openly doesn’t mean you should. A friend summed it up perfectly when he said “It would be perfectly legal for a redneck white dude to strut around a ghetto wearing an “Obama is an idiot” T-shirt, but would it be a good idea?”
Your carry method may be legal, but it may also cost you your life.
Fobus holster destruction video was an eye opener.
I was advised by an employer to open carry at the work place. After the first few days my firearm was in a LE security holster and I was getting training in firearm retention from the local Police Academy Instructor. Even with all that I’m not personally comfortable open carrying in an urban or suburban environment. Out in the woods is another story.
” As soon as I saw the person described, I would put him on the ground at gunpoint and handcuff him until I could figure out what’s going on.”
– Most officers I know would be able to discern if the person were a threat, if the individual was standing in line waiting to pay for his goods and you ‘put him on the ground’… you could be facing your own legal troubles.
“Criminals are not deterred by openly carried guns.”
– Evidence? An open carrier (myself and those I know) would be practicing situational awareness, much as an officer would. Do officers not open carry and do they not pay attention to their surroundings so they may ascertain a threat before it becomes a problem?
I appreciate what you are trying to do, but this article comes across as elitist. Concealed carriers are statistically one of the safest demographics in the U.S., many of those who OC have been CCers already and are very familiar with the genre, by default.. they would be as safe and trained. Sure you will get the occasional new guy, this is why sites/groups like opencarry .org is very important, we support each other and educate those who do not know better.
Have a safe day.
Rev Jim
Hey Jim,
I appreciate your comments. In no way did I intend for the article to seem elitist. I’m the biggest concealed carry supporter you’ll find. 90% of my training business is teaching classes for the everyday citizen who wants to be able to protect himself a little better. I support open carry, I just don’t think it’s a good idea most of the time.
With your first point, I would agree. I’m structuring a theoretical response based solely on the (potentially incorrect) information provided by the caller. Obviously, once I arrived on scene and didn’t see what the caller was describing, my response would moderate. However, just because everything “seems” ok, doesn’t mean that the guy isn’t a lunatic who decided to holster up as soon as he knew the police were enroute. Based on the information given I would still handcuff and disarm the person until I could figure out what is going on. No jury in the area I work would fault me for that.
I don’t believe we’ve ever met, but if you knew me a little better you’d know that I tend to side with the CCW (or open) carrier, unless the person with the gun is doing something dangerous or illegal. I’ve never arrested a single person carrying a gun who wasn’t engaged in some other criminal activity as well.
As to the issue of situational awareness, it is my experience that most people’s awareness isn’t nearly as good as they think it is…and I’m including cops in that group as well. It’s just too easy to slip up and if the criminal knows you are armed, your slip up may have fatal consequences.
You are right. Cops do carry openly, but it is because society has come to expect it. Even if the cops carried concealed, everyone would still know that they are armed because of the obvious uniform. There is no element of surprise when you are wearing that polyester monkeysuit. That makes their situations a little different than yours. When everyone knows you are armed, it seems like a better choice to have the weapon where it is most accessible.
That still doesn’t eliminate the dangers. As I stated in the article, lots of cops are killed by their own weapons. We can only do the best we can by practicing good awareness, using a retention holster that makes it difficult for a criminal to take the gun, and consistently practicing weapon retention skills. No doubt that not every cop practices those three things, but in general, I think they do it better than most folks with a CCW permit.
For what it’s worth, in my job as a full time trainer, I don’t always wear a traditional uniform. I can carry my gun openly on the job if I wish and no one would have issue with it. I won’t. If I’m not in uniform, my gun is always concealed…and I have a second one handy in case I get in a struggle for the primary!
I couldn’t agree more with Rev Jim. No disrespect to anyone in Law enforcement intended there are still a few Honest people in this world. profiling ?
I carry a gun everywhere I go it goes I have my lifetime permit but I’m not for sure if it is specifically for conceled or not?? how do I find out in new to all these gun laws.
You’ll have to look at your state’s laws. Do a simple internet search for “xxxx(your state) firearms laws”. One other option is to call your state attorney general’s office or your local police department.
“Who wants to deal with that when you can simply cover your gun?”
In a lot of cases, if they could simply cover their gun, they wouldn’t be carrying openly. Some states have just made it illegal or prohibitively restrictive to carry concealed, and many of these open carriers are making the only political statement left to them.
“Based on the information given I would still handcuff and disarm the person until I could figure out what is going on. No jury in the area I work would fault me for that.”
It’s not the jury you need to worry about.
This is a basic violation of Peelian Principle numbers six AND seven. Proning out a law abiding citizen that was just out picking up milk and diapers is a WONDERFUL way to make friends.
That citizen you just put in the dirt will now have a fully justified reason to never help a cop.
When he walks into a polling booth and sees a referendum on increasing the amount of money allocated to police, guess how he’s going to respond?
Or, you know, you could just walk up to the guy and have a chat and see what’s up. But I suppose that your concern about going home at the end of the day is way more important than his rights, his dignity and his respect for the modern practitioners of law enforcement.
One doesn’t have to wonder why a 2011 Gallup poll shows that public confidence in the police is only 56% and dropping every year.
A Times UK article indicated that public confidence in the police is lower each time a person comes in contact with the police. This was true of both criminals and victims of crime.
It’s a small step from your attitude to the attitude of East Palo Alto Police Detective Rod Tuason. His Facebook comments on open carry earned him an official reprimand from the East Palo Alto Police Department and the eternal love of the open carry movement. Publicity like the kind he gave can’t be bought. Thousands of people that never considered open carrying now do so because a cop with an attitude said they couldn’t.
The problem with just having a quick chat, is that if the person isn’t a peaceful person exercising his right to open carry, the cop is likely to get killed. The cop responding to one of these calls has to walk a very fine line with competing needs of balancing his safety, the safety of bystanders, the public confidence factors that you noted, and the gun carrier’s constitutional rights. It’s very hard to get the perfect balance of these competing needs when we have imperfect information.
Please note I did not say anything about “putting anyone in the dirt”. If I received the call described, found the suspect and noted that he didn’t appear to be committing any crimes at the moment, I would not put him down on the ground or handle him roughly. I would casually walk up to him, explain that I was investigating a call about a man threatening people with a gun, and ask him to place his hands behind his back to be handcuffed until I could get his side of the story and find out what’s truly going on.
If I determined that no crime had been committed, I would take the cuffs off, apologize and explain to him why I did what I did and what the caller stated. Then I would let him go and try to hunt down the caller for providing false information.
This is the way that I would personally handle the encounter. I can’t speak for my department or police officers in general. This is what I would do and I think it’s a good balance between all the competing factors I listed above. Undoubtedly, some cops will react more aggressively, some less so. It’s difficult detailing the perfect tactical response to a fictional scenario.
But I think the real issue here is that the comments on this article prove my points…open carry is likely to be dangerous and a hassle for the carrier. If these dangers and annoyances can be avoided, a reasonable person should avoid them.
To restate my position, I AM NOT OPPOSED TO OPEN CARRY! I just think it’s a dumb idea. I liken it to smoking cigarettes…it’s your right to smoke, and I will defend that right. But I don’t think it’s a good idea and would try to convince you to stop. That’s what I’m trying to do here.
In the 5 years I was a MP in the U.S. Army I open carried on duty, of course.
After I got out, I worked a series of security jobs, in all of which I wore a uniform and carried a firearm. For two of those positions I drove a company vehicle and was responsible for refueling it at specific commercial locations. This was before pay at the pump was ubiquitous and I soon came to hate few things more than queuing up to the register, with a gun on my hip and someone standing behind me. Typically I’d wind up standing sideways to the counter and clumsily trying to divide my attention between the transaction and that person behind me. Always kinda awkward.
Once, while I was on lunch break, some fine citizen made that call y’all are talking about, in spite of the uniform! The two officers who showed up neither “proned me out” nor handcuffed me, but they did keep some distance and a few objects (shelves) between us during the first part of the encounter. Our conversation was professional and amicable, so I guess we all parted ways happy enough. Still.
So, I pretty much agree with Greg. Sure I tried to be alert. And that doesn’t mean keeping anyone, criminal or not, from getting within 10 feet of you, cause you can’t really do that. What it does mean is you get to be kind of paranoid and whenever folk’s do get sort’a close, keeping the gun hand close to your holster and trying to watch everyone out’a the corner of your eye, just in case. That’s how it goes when you’re doing it right, in my humble opinion. No one ever tried a grab on me, but for all that I’ve just detailed, I am still not fool enough to believe that no one ever had the opportunity. It just never happened.
Is open carry, in urban environment, a hassle? Yeah, I’ll vouch for that. I prefer concealed carry.
So hey, Greg! That gun grab you describe; how am I going to stop that? Happens I have thoughts on that. I long ago decided, when open carrying, to assume that anyone who lays a hand on me is going for the gun and most likely harboring intentions to which I might strenuously object. So I harbored the mindset to respond with enthusiastic violence. Say, as you stipulate, you are stronger than me and you pin my right hand to your chest; if, as you reach with our left, I reach with my left, grab your face, and very insistently endeavor to bury a thumb or some fingers knuckle deep into one or both of your eyes, might that alter your game a little bit?
I think it might, even if incompletely successful, and I think that sort of thing might be the best retention. But, again to the point, when carrying concealed I’m a lot less likely to deal with that, and that is what is better.
S’late, I’m tired, and I’m sure I’ve rambled enough. So, so long!
Joel, in that situation I would advise exactly what you suggested…a swift and violent counterattack. Thumb in the eye, strike to the throat, or an off hand fixed blade knife.
The problem I’ve seen in people without a lot of fighting experience is that they get weapons focused. Their one and only solution is drawing the gun and shooting in a lethal force confrontation. When they can’t draw, their brains blank out and they don’t think of other options.
It takes a little training or experience to effortlessly shift between tactics when you realize one isn’t working. It’s sad, but in my experience, I don’t see many gun carriers (including cops) who have this kind of training.
Greg,
This isn’t really about open carry but I wonder if you might give me your take anyway. When I first started carrying, I was paranoid about concealment. I worried about LEO encounters, MWAG calls, etc. However, I’ve had situations where cover garments have slipped, right in front of officers, or I was to my mind obviously printing in front of an officer. I was always waiting to be asked about my CHL or god forbid yelled at and told to lay down on the ground but none of that ever happened.
Knowing that this is location specific, what is an officer likely to do if he notices someone carrying a gun but going about their business? I live in Columbus and sort of got the impression from others that local police here aren’t fans of concealed carry.
I know it is perfectly legal to carry concealed with a valid CHL but I worry about LEO encounters on the off chance I run into someone like that Canton officer who’s name I don’t recall right now. I don’t let it stop me from carrying every day, anywhere it is legal but…
It probably shouldn’t be this way, but a lot will depend on the individual officer, the area you are in, and how you look. I am probably as far toward the pro-gun side of the spectrum as a cop can get, so maybe my answer wouldn’t be all that useful. If it were me and I caught a glimpse of a gun on a person, I’m going to assess the person’s appearance and mannerisms so that I could get a feel for what’s going on. If the person wasn’t doing anything that looked criminal and wasn’t in a place where the gun is prohibited, I most likely wouldn’t say or do anything. Open carry is legal in Ohio and a lot of people have carry licenses. In the area where I work, the most likely scenario is that I am dealing with someone who hasn’t broken any laws by carrying the gun. I’m not going to hassle someone who isn’t committing any violations.
That response would likely change if I thought the person was engaged in criminal activity or was in a place he shouldn’t have a gun. If there isn’t any urgency, I would call for another officer before I made an approach. We would casually walk up to the person and ask him about the gun.
If I thought the person was going to draw or flee before a second officer arrived, I would likely handle things a little more aggressively.
But remember, all this is just my personal opinion. I can’t speak for all officers or all departments.
It’s been my experience that 90% of people around me when I do open carry don’t notice. People for the most part don’t look at one another too much in public if you look somewhat normal. Where I live the occasional open carry is normal. Not constant, but not alarming. Most police in my area tend to be ambivalent about it.
A big city is another matter. I wouldn’t open carry in Seattle or Portland for example. The larger the police force, the more the “us against them” mentality, and the more hostility to the armed citizen.
I would describe the gun grab situation as the great danger for the average cop. With some of the “duty” holsters out there, the weapon nearly hanging out into space on an open platter. After a while it becomes part of the daily slog, the daily weight, another burden, and being used to folks respecting the badge gets you by for years- until that day you have to fight someone who knows what they are doing.
I have yet to see a department that does decent unarmed training or realistic weapon retention skills. I see, from informal surveys of departments across the country, far more dependance on the Taser and numbers.
While I can appreciate what you are trying to do here, I can’t help but take issue with some of what you have said. You talk about gun grabs as if this happens to citizens like it does with LEOs. It doesn’t. Not at all. A turd with a record or a felony warrant sees you as an arrest and a long prison stay. He sees us as nothing but a good way to get shot. He can walk away from me. You have to try to gain control and effect an arrest, deadly force is far further down your list than it is for us. All of this aside, gun grabs from civilian OCers are extremely rare. I’ve found exactly 2, and I’ve looked really hard.
You also talk about being shot in a robbery. You even said it’s “likely”. Can you find ONE example of a citizen OCer being targeted like this? I honestly can’t. We can all come up with what COULD happen, but isn’t it more sensible to look at what actually HAS happened as an indicator of what is LIKELY to happen? What has happened, over and over…twice in my case, is that turd sees a citizen with a gun and alters his plans. Even notice that gunstores almost never get robbed? My holstered pistol has stopped 2 armed robberies in 2 years inside my wrecker business. Look at the Waffle House robbery attempt in Kennesaw, GA. Excellent example.
In my state, unlike yours, open carry (all carry) was banned for a LONG time because of Post-civil War reconstruction laws. We got CC in 1995, and got OC this year. OC in your own business has always been legal. Anyway, because the legislature actually passed a well publicized bill, the public and LEOs are on the same page, and we aren’t having any problems. One cool benefit I’ve noticed is that the local street zombies no longer harass me for “spare change” when I’m fueling my trucks late at night. In fact, they avoid me altogether, and frankly I’m quite good with that.
I will continue to OC for the deterrent value, but if the fantastical scenarios you predict ever actually do happen, then I will reevaluate my position.
I’m sure you didn’t mean to sound elitist (“we are better than you”), but the your article is rife with logical fallacies and inconsistencies.
My favorite is this breathtaking statement of the obvious: “When everyone knows you are armed, it seems like a better choice to have the weapon where it is most accessible.” In other words, when you OC, everyone knows you are armed, Mr. Einstein.
There is no equivalent to proper weapon selection (sometimes it isn’t a firearm; a sturdy pen into the eye socket can be preferable, and less disturbing to others) but if you’re going to arm yourself with a revolver or pistol, you want a .40 or better. Concealed carry makes that a tough proposition for many men and almost all women (of normal size) by INFRINGING on the ability to BEAR the arm when most necessary, hiding it away under clothing and such.
I think someone in backward states like mine (Texas, where OC is still illegal) need to get over their ‘wild frontier’ images of days gone by, and allow us citizens to be as prepared as necessary to defend ourselves and our community when the need arises.
What would you think of a law requiring all members of the US Army to conceal their firearms? Did you know that the ONLY “US Army” authorized in the US Constitution is stipulated in Article I Section 8 Clause 15…as YOU AND ME, the citizen Militia!
Go ahead, look it up. Been there for 220 years, plain as day, and 100 times more powerful than the Second Amendment alone.
In other words, whatever the paucity of firearms familiarization and training may be, that is the fault of the state legislatures who have slept on the job rather than muster and train their citizens AS DEMANDED BY LAW.
I discuss it here http://www.americaagainnow.com/better_than_an_ar15
and in other blog articles on our site.
Open carry (with adequate training providers) is the only logical way forward in areas with high crime rates, or in states with a lot of wide open spaces, snakes, and other critters for which one wants a sidearm handy rather than buried.
David M Zuniga
Founder, AmericaAgain!
Yes, I am aware of Texas HB400 (Reps. Geo Lavender and Chris Paddie) filed just days ago, to restore open carry to Texas, as we have been since way before Texas became a Republic.
I just doubt that it will pass, because so many big-government minions have moved into our state from California and Mexico.